Stephen Hwang, MAP 0:04
Welcome to MAPmaking, a podcast series that brings you Canada's leading voices on the health equity issues that affect us all. I'm Steven Hwang, director of the MAP research centre at St. Michael's Hospital, Unity Health Toronto. In this first season of MAPmaking, we're exploring the recommendations from our Equity Roadmap Report, a set of 13 recommendations for a more equitable COVID-19 pandemic recovery in Canada.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 0:40
You know, it's about inclusion and feeling like you belong, and feeling like you have the same shot at life that other people do.

Emily Holton, MAP 0:50
Hi, I'm Emily Holton. I lead communications and marketing at MAP and produce this podcast. Today I'm really excited to be speaking with Naomi Thulien and Catie Lamer. Dr. Naomi Thulien is a MAP scientist whose research is focused on the social and structural inequities that cause and perpetuate youth homelessness. She's also a nurse practitioner with Covenant House Toronto, and one of my very favorite people to work with. Catie Lamer is a Toronto based filmmaker and producer. She's produced and directed for networks including CTV, CBC, the History Channel, Discovery, YTV, Viceland and TVO. She's incredibly skilled at telling stories that celebrate honor and amplify voices that often go unheard. For this episode of MAPmaking, we're breaking from this season's focus on MAP's Equity Roadmap recommendations, and today we're celebrating a big moment for Naomi and Catie. Their new documentary 'Searching for Home' launches today at searchingforhome.ca. The film is a companion to Naomi's MAP research study called Transitioning Youth Out of Homelessness. We're going to talk about Naomi's research and the film, which is just so good, and why it was so important to make. Naomi, Catie, hi! Welcome to MAPmaking.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 2:08
Thanks, Emily, I'm super excited to be here.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 2:12
Me too. I'm really excited to talk to you about today.

Emily Holton, MAP 2:15
Naomi, you're a critical qualitative researcher. And your research is guided by community-based participatory action principles. These are majorly academic terms. Can you can you tell us what they mean?

Naomi Thulien, MAP 2:28
Yeah, it's a bit jargony, isn't it? So, critical qualitative research. So I am a an academic Fellow at the Centre for Critical Qualitative Health Research at the University of Toronto. And really, we talk about doing science differently. Critical qualitative research means that I'm going out into the field, and I'm really interested in health as a social phenomena. So I'm really interested in people's stories. And critical means really, it doesn't mean to criticize, but really when I think about critical, I think about power and power imbalance. So who in society has power? Who doesn't? And how do factors like your race, your class, your gender, how does that impact how much power you have, or you don't have in society. So that's what critical qualitative research means. And then community-based participatory action research really means that my job is to serve and work alongside the community, and it's very much a social justice orientation to my work. And really, we begin, I would say, with the end in mind, and so it's very, like the name implies, it's very action oriented, meaning at the outcome of this, I need to have done something good for the people that I'm working with. And those two things go I think, quite nicely together, critical qualitative research and participatory action research.

Emily Holton, MAP 3:44
Why focus your research on youth who are transitioning out of homelessness? What are the questions that you're trying to answer?

Naomi Thulien, MAP 3:52
Well, the journey for me really began back in 2012, when I was a nurse practitioner at Covenant House. And I saw this pattern of young people that would be housed for a while, and then they would come back in and then they were no longer housed. And when I would talk to them about why that was, they were kind of vague in their responses, like, even they didn't know. And so as I looked into that a bit more, I saw that there really was nothing in the literature globally about what it's like for young people over a long period of time once they've exited homelessness. So in 2012, I went back to school to get my PhD. And for that study, what I did is I hung out with nine young people who had left the shelter system, and I spent 10 months with them in Toronto, and I wanted to see what it was like for them as they exited homelessness and try to achieve social and economic inclusion. And I came away from that work, I think, you know, really changed really, as a human being, I think, and I thought, Okay, first of all, we're not doing a very good job of this. And second of all, what we need to do is give young people sort of three fundamental things when they exit homelessness. So financial capital, things like rent subsidies. Social capital, things like relationships you can use as currency to kind of help you make connections in society. And the final thing is more of an intangible resource called identity capital. So using a sense of purpose and feeling in control of your life to kind of pull you forward when life gets hard. And so then my next step after I graduated was, we designed this study, Transitioning Youth Out of Homelessness, where we gave everybody rent subsidies for two years. And then we randomly assigned half of them a mentor. And the idea was to see of young people who received rent subsidies and mentorship did a little bit better in terms of social and economic inclusion. That was the plan anyway. And what ended up happening was the pandemic hit less than a year into our study. And so it really made it challenging for the mentors and mentees to connect. But I think the rent subsidies were super helpful, because young people were, despite being in the middle of this global pandemic, didn't lose their housing. And the outcomes that we looked at over time, so things like community integration and self esteem and hope, as a group, they didn't go down over time. So I do believe that it was the rent subsidies that really helped sustain the young people.

Emily Holton, MAP 6:18
What did you learn about the pathways out of homelessness and the challenges that your participants were facing?

Naomi Thulien, MAP 6:26
Well, what we saw was at the beginning of the study, all of the young people to varying degrees used different words that denoted this sense of circling or kind of being stuck. Some people talked about, like shooting in the dark or being in a fog. And when we did a bit of a deeper dive into what they meant by that, you know, often, they would talk about their histories of trauma or growing up in poverty. And one of the things that I noticed when I work with young people is often they don't see how inequitable their life has been, until they try to exit homelessness, and see that it is indeed not a level playing field. So often, you don't see that while you're still entrenched in homelessness. So, you know, that became clear to us, the young people that seem to be that they were sort of trapped over two and a half years really didn't seem like they were making a lot of progress, we would see with those young people that they had maybe one significant relationship, so really no other connections in the community. And if something went wrong with that relationship, then they you know, they really struggled. And also, you know, they were all housed because of the rent subsidies. But the young people who felt kind of trapped, the house didn't feel like a home. But the young people that were able to sort of break free from that cycling, they talked about the house also being a place that felt like home where they felt physically and mentally safe. They talked about connection connecting to themselves. So really good self understanding, but also having a bunch of different connections in the community. Often they talked about informal mentors and mentors outside our study who served almost like a coach like role in their life. And finally this idea of identity capital came up again. And we saw that young people that had this sense of purpose and feeling in control of their lives, were more likely to sort of break free from that trap of homelessness, and also more likely to reach out to others in the communities for support.

Emily Holton, MAP 8:33
So you decided to make a companion documentary to your research study, tell me about what inspired that decision.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 8:42
I have wanted to make a documentary film ever since I was a PhD student because, you know, as eloquently as I could maybe speak or write about this topic, I can never do justice to showing people the struggles and also the incredible resilience of these young people. And I want people to see that for themselves.

Emily Holton, MAP 9:07
Searching for Home follows three young people, Sonia, Devin and Anthony as they transition out of homelessness with the help of rent supplements, as part of the Transitioning Youth Out of Homelessness study. Catie, you produced and directed the film, how did you and Naomi work together to plan it? What was it like working with the researcher?

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 9:07
I mean, I think it came about really organically and a lot of ways it was first just getting to know Naomi and Jen Recknagel, who was also one of the executive producers on the film, and just started really conversationally about Naomi's process. And in terms of her research and the way she goes about it, I mean, there was a huge learning curve for me in terms of some of the academic language and things like that. But once I kind of distilled it down, I realized like Naomi's kind of already making a documentary, we just haven't started recording it yet. So I think it was really integrative in that way. And so I kind of took her or took my lead from her and the way she was approaching her research and then sort of transitioned that over into incorporating filmmaking into it. And just started slowly, just by really getting to know the three young people who are participating in the film, who were also in the study, of course, and with no cameras, just talking, and just making sure that they were very comfortable with what was going on. It's it was a very new process for them, and just slowly starting to build up and just taking their lead really I think, yeah, how do you feel Naomi?

Naomi Thulien, MAP 10:33
Well, I was just thinking, laughing to myself. I've never thought of qualitative research as just making a documentary, but not actually making one. So I think that's really true. It's like a documentary is going on in your mind all the time. Also, for us, and I don't know, Catie, you picked up on this. But I was feeling very protective about our research participants. And so we interviewed three people and Catie was the last person that we interviewed - Jen and I. And, you know, we loved Catie right away, because she just has this really sweet and humble way about her. And we felt like the young people would trust her. And that was really important to us. But it was yeah, it was I don't know, Catie, if you've picked up on my protection of young people, but I just wanted to-

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 11:16
Oh 100%. Yeah. Which is why I wanted to work with you too, like, I think that one of the most important things when you're making a documentary, and I'm sure doing any research, like this is just, you know, I think documentary filmmaking is kind of shifting, like there was this approach, I think, you know, years ago about being objective, and just sort of studying your subjects and having this distance. And for me, I feel like that's kind of a false dynamic that's being set up. And I think that breaking that down is really important. And making sure that the people that you're, you're filming, feel very, very included in the process and safe in the process, no matter what the subject is. But I think with this subject, it's even more important. And so I really loved Naomi's approach to her research. And I think it was a good kind of it was a nice gelling situation.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 12:07
And it was so important for me to that we didn't just, you know, the goal was not for people to feel sorry for these young people, like I really wanted us to show their amazing strength, despite all the adversity that they're up against, through no fault of their own. And I knew that Catie was the one to do that.

Emily Holton, MAP 12:25
So how did you - how did the young people work with you to shape their own stories?

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 12:30
I mean, I think it was, again, just having a back and forth dialogue and making sure that kind of at every stage of the filming process, they were very aware of what was going on, that they could choose to answer questions, were not answered questions. They could think about things afterwards that they had said, review footage and say, Actually, I don't want that in there, that they were really in control of their own narrative. Yeah, I think was really important for all of us. And just having that real interaction, I think helped help empower them in the process, and really made them feel like they were part of the process and not just kind of subjects being studied. Yeah, I think that was hugely important to all of us.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 13:11
And I think this was a little bit new for you to Catie is, what was really important to us and to, frankly, to our ethics board was that the young people would be able to veto anything they didn't like. And so that meant that at the end of, you know, a couple of years of work that, you know, we showed this film to them, that one of them could have decided that they didn't want their story told, and because their stories are all woven together, you know, it could have potentially meant not showing the film at all. So that was a little bit scary, but important. So they, they signed off on it.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 13:50
Yeah, incredibly important.

Emily Holton, MAP 13:53
I remember the first time we discussed the film together with you, Catie and Naomi, and also Jen, you shared that, you were still filming, and you shared with me that you were starting to feel like that process of having the participants review their own their own footage and shape their own story was becoming - you felt like it was becoming an intervention in itself. And it was helping the protagonists see themselves with more pride and more compassion.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 14:20
Yeah. So I also see this in qualitative research. That's one of the first things that I learned when I started doing qualitative research is that bearing witness to somebody's story, especially when it's a hard story, that in and of itself, it's an intervention. And so then to see that on film as well, I think it just takes it to the next level. And one of the things that young people often share with me is when I share with them that other people have said the same thing or other people are also struggling as they transition away from homelessness. It makes them feel better and not so alone, which I think is just true for all of us, right when we're struggling and someone else says they're struggling with the same thing we're like, oh, okay, it's not just me. So that's what I what I see as well.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 15:05
Yeah, I like that term bearing witness a lot too. And just listening. I think that a lot of times people aren't listened to thoroughly enough. And I think that that can be a really empowering mode, I guess. And I remember showing, like Anthony and Sonia, and Devin the trailer, and it was Anthony, I think he said, like, wow, you make made me look really good. And I was like, I didn't make you look good. This is who you are, you know. And I think that was a moment for him where he saw himself through a little bit of a different lens. And I, you know, because I didn't, there was no fancy footwork, there was no edit. You know, I mean, that was just who he was. And I think that being able to maybe have a remove from yourself and not be so so in yourself all the time and seeing yourself, like looking at yourself really looking at yourself and being like, alright, this is actually who I am. Yeah, can be really pivotal thing for people.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 15:55
Yeah, I think there's a lot of stigma around not just homelessness, but when you're trying to exit homelessness, and it's not going as well as you thought it would. Young people tend to blame themselves. And they don't have a lot of compassion on themselves. And so also, I think, when they were able to see the two other young people in the film, and they would have compassion on their stories, and then in turn have compassion on themselves as well, because they were all going through the same thing.

Emily Holton, MAP 16:24
Catie, you followed the protagonist for two and a half years. What were some important moments for you?

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 16:30
I think, for me, one of the pivotal moments and it was really tied into what sort of Naomi was saying, and looking at in her research, too, was the second lockdown. I think the first lockdown people were kind of getting through, just you know, gripping whatever they could and just kind of getting through it. I think the second lockdown, I noticed just a real shift in everybody's, not just the participants, but ability to kind of cope with things. And I think, you know, Naomi's talked a lot about just the precariousness of exiting homelessness. And I think if you take one thing away from somebody who's trying to exit homelessness, it becomes that much more challenging. And so throwing somebody into a second lockdown, and losing your social circle, or losing school or losing a job just completely shifted their ability to sometimes to continue that transition, or to feel positive in those moments. So I think the second lockdown, I noticed, yeah, that was a pretty pivotal moment for me. I feel I don't know about you, Naomi.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 17:33
Yeah, when you were saying that it makes me think about I always imagine young people sort of on this tight rope with not much of a safety net, or no safety net. And so they just the young people that we see just really have no room for error. If something goes wrong, you know, they'll end up homeless, many of them.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 17:49
Yeah, I think I wasn't, I wasn't aware of how I think it was very naive, and of me to even presume that there would be all of these sort of social, there'll be infrastructure for young people like really set in place for people to help them transition out and to know how precarious it is, how isolating it is, and how there are some supports in place, but very few and very also hard to navigate. Yeah, and access. And just kind of hard to understand, like, it was so confusing for me to start learning about all of this stuff. And it was pretty eye opening. And and also just kind of made me more aware of my own naivety around it all, too. Yeah. Which I think we a lot of us are

Naomi Thulien, MAP 18:34
Yeah, well, and that was my experience too Catie, even when I mean, I should have known better, I was a nurse working in a shelter. And it wasn't until I really started hanging out with young people for my doctoral work outside the shelter system. And then I became so angry too, I was like, we are not, we're not setting these young people up for success at all. And like you said about system navigation. It's brutal. And then they have to do so when they're feeling exhausted already. And it ties back to zapping away your sense of purpose, right? So this is what you spend your time doing, is how to navigate the system so I can eat or maintain my housing, not how I can sit and dream and think about what I might want for my life.

Emily Holton, MAP 19:16
And I mean, being in your 20s at all, like yes is a hero's journey in itself. Right? You know, it's exhausting.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 19:23
Yeah I don't want to repeat it.

Emily Holton, MAP 19:25
Naomi, what's your what's your dream for this film? What do you want people to walk away - how do you want people to be different after they see this movie?

Naomi Thulien, MAP 19:33
Well, I've been thinking about that for a while. And Katie and Jen and I, we met every other week. I miss seeing them actually. We met each other every other week for a couple of years. And I had said to them, you know, I want us to have a national conversation that goes beyond housing, about what kinds of supports do young people need so that they can feel included in society? And so when people watch this film, I don't want to give away the ending, but I want them to pay close attention to the ending, and what that should tell us as a society about where we can intervene. And I want people to also be able to look around and say, Hey, I wonder who in my life might be experiencing homelessness or have experienced homelessness and and how could I help? If people that are listening are in positions of power, you know, things around like portable rent subsidies, and how beneficial that was for we see in the film, what it was like for Sonia, Anthony and Devin once the rent subsidies ran out. And if if a person is in a position of power, they could implement something like portable rent subsidies, that would be an amazing thing, I think to consider. Even though this was not meant to be a film about portable rent subsidies, and honestly, that wasn't the purpose of the study, either. We were really looking at mentorship, but rent subsidies. So just as an example, we spent $6,000, for each young person a year for the Toronto participants will that is six and a half times cheaper than the cost of an annual shelter stay in Toronto, which is about $40,000 a year. And supportive housing where you give young people say a rent subsidy plus some additional supports, that costs 24,000 a year, so about four times more expensive. So some young people in the system, and I think a lot of young people in the system, in fact, could benefit from something like portable rent subsidies. And if you want to consider this issue from a cost benefit perspective, that is potentially a good idea to explore further.

Emily Holton, MAP 21:40
Is this a common thing? Like, is it a tool in the toolbox? You know, or is it is this, like-

Naomi Thulien, MAP 21:46
Yeah, so it's not Emily. And it actually ties to sort of the idea of basic income, which you know, was was supposed to be studied in 2018. And then it got cut. And so this does tie back to the Equity Roadmap, because income is one of them and income supports. And so no, this is typically not what we do at all for young people. We give them subsidized housing, but we don't give them a portable rent subsidy and say, Hey, go and live where you want to live, whatever that looks like for you. We tell them where to live.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 22:21
In terms of the participants like in the film, you can see that portable rent subsidies are hugely important. They play a pivotal role in in in in Sonia's life and Devin's in particular. They, Sonia's able to move to when she needs to move.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 22:36
Like Sonya moved to Owen Sound with the money. So typically, what would have been offered to Sonia would be, you know, rent subsidy, we tell you to live in Toronto, not in Owen Sound, because that's not our jurisdiction or whatever. It's like, you can actually go live wherever you want Canada with this portable rent subsidy. So that is novel. And then Anthony moved to St. Catharines, because it was cheaper than Toronto. And yeah.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 23:01
I felt like it's like agency in your hand in a way. And that's important in terms of identity capital too.

Emily Holton, MAP 23:09
At the end of every episode, we ask our guests some final questions. And I'd love to ask you both. On your very best days at work, days when you come home feeling grateful that you get to do what you do, what do those days look like? Catie, why don't you go first?

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 23:25
I guess I mean, my days are really varied in terms of what I do. But I guess it's when I get to connect with people that I wouldn't normally. And I guess it's really just about connection for me. And when I get when I'm feeling like we're kind of resonating together and creating something together and that might benefit someone else. I think those are my best days.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 23:47
I think for me, I last week, I had a great week, I was in clinic. And as you mentioned at the beginning, Emily, I work with young people experiencing homelessness who have experienced homelessness, and two young people came and said to me, Naomi, I got this job. And so both of them had a job that they loved. And it was like, full time with benefits. And they were so excited. And I you know, been working with them for a while and they were like, you know, Thanks for believing in me. And so that's, that's just the best when that happens. I love that. And I'm like, Yeah, this is why I do the work that I do.

Emily Holton, MAP 24:21
Naomi Thulien, Catie Lamer, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so happy for you that this film is going out in the world.

Naomi Thulien, MAP 24:29
Thanks, Emily. And thanks for the opportunity to talk about our film.

Catie Lamer, Filmmaker 24:33
Yeah, we appreciate it a lot. Thank you.

Stephen Hwang, MAP 24:38
You've been listening to MAPmaking. MAP is a St. Michael's Hospital research centre dedicated to creating a healthier future for all. Learn more at maphealth.ca. I want to acknowledge the sacred land on which MAP and St. Michael's Hospital operate. This land is the territory of the Huron-Wendat and Petun First Nations, the Seneca and most recently, the Mississauga of the Credit First Nation. We are grateful to have the opportunity to work in the community on this territory. We are also mindful of broken covenants, and the need to strive to make right with all our relations. This podcast is produced by Emily Holton with associate producer Samira Prasad. I want to acknowledge and thank the St. Michael's Foundation and our incredible donors as well as Staples Canada for their support and commitment to MAP's work. We partnered with the team at Staples to create Even the Odds, an initiative to raise awareness of inequity in Canada and to help build vibrant healthy communities. You can learn more at staples.ca/eventheodds. I'm Stephen Hwang. Thank you for listening. Take good care, and we'll see you next time.